Bam Smack Pow
Fansided

Interview with Joseph McCabe on ‘100 Things Batman Fans Should Know…’

By Mike McNulty

facebooktwitterreddit

A new book detailing the history and the people behind Batman is the subject of this exclusive Bam Smack Pow interview with the author.

He’s been called not only one of the greatest superheroes of all time, but one of the greatest characters in all of fiction. Aside from comic books, he’s appeared in dozens of live-action and animated films, television series, novels, children’s books, video games, toys, and even a musical. Academics and psychologists have even published papers on him, along with his effect on popular culture. We are, of course, talking about the Caped Crusader, the Dark Knight, and the World’s Greatest Detective–Batman.

Yet with more than 75 years of history behind him, along so may diverse versions and incarnations, do we really know Batman as much as we think we do? For Joseph McCabe and his new book,100 Things Batman Fans Should Know & Do Before They Die (Triumph Books) this came in not only exploring Batman’s past, but also talking with many of Batman’s creators, including writers, actors, artists, and directors.

The following exclusive interview with McCabe took place via phone, and transcribed with McCabe’s consent.

Credit: Newscom and Patrica Frey (Triumph Books); cover for 100 Things Batman Fans Should Know & Do Before They Die

Bam Smack Pow: How did “100 Things Batman Fans Should Know & Do Before They Die” come about?

Joseph McCabe: It started from a previous book I’d worked on. The publisher (Triumph Books) was doing a series of 100 Things books on various aspects of popular culture. There was a 100 Things about Star Wars, one about The Beatles, another on the Avengers, etc. They then contacted me and asked if I wanted to write a 100 Things book on Superman.

While I was working on the book, I thought to myself, “You know…I’d really like to do something like this for Batman.” So after I finished the Superman book, I told the publisher I was interested in doing a 100 Things Batman Fans Should Know & Do. They liked the idea, and here we are.

BSP: Were there different approaches and challenges to writing both “100 Things Superman Fans Should Know” and “100 Things Batman Fans Should Know?”

JM: Different challenges for sure. Not to say that Superman isn’t iconic, because he’s the very first superhero. And not to say I’m not a big Superman fan, which I am. It’s just that the drop-off with Superman comes a lot quicker when compared to Batman.

Take Superman’s rogues gallery. If you ask even the most dedicated Superman fan to list his best villains, they’d probably name about five off the top of their head, before they start struggling with the rest. With Batman, you could easily rattle off two dozen villains, maybe more. He has the best and most memorable rogues gallery in all of comics.

BSP: With having so many Batman villains to choose from, then, was there anything you decided to leave out that you wished you kept in?

JM: Oh, completely! There were a couple of times where I’d have to decide who or what should take priority. Like, “Is the Mad Hatter really more important than The Ventriloquist and Scarface? It’s debatable. But the Mad Hatter has a lot more history, so maybe he should be included…”

Even though the book is called 100 Things Batman Fans Should Know and Do, I sort of see it being closer to a game than something comparative. My hope is that it provokes discussion and prompts fans to argue for the inclusion of their favorites. Of course it doesn’t just contain different characters, but also titles–whether they’re for comics or movies or TV shows—and things to do and places people can visit. That said, unlike 100 Things Superman Fans Should Know and Do, I could do another list of 100 things for Batman.

If you ask someone about Batman, they could, for example, probably tell you everything about him based off the Christopher Nolan films and yet have no clue about the 1960’s Batman TV show…The sheer number of different incarnations is also what attracts so many people to him.

BSP: Is there anything about Batman you believe even his most dedicated fans would be surprised by?

JM: Sure. I think readers of the book will find nuggets of new information. Part of this is because there’s so many different versions of Batman on top of him being different from many other superheroes. If you ask someone about Batman, they could, for example, probably tell you everything about him based off the Christopher Nolan films and yet have no clue about the 1960’s Batman TV show. Or they may cite stories from the Silver Age of Comics yet be unfamiliar with what Batman was like during the Golden Age of Comics.

The sheer number of different incarnations is also what attracts so many people to him. When you talk to artists, they’ll go on about Batman’s costume, about how the cape and ears on his mask allow for so many visual interpretations. Other people respond to the dichotomy with the Joker, and the themes of chaos vs. order. There are those who see Batman as a force for good, who converted personal tragedy into a lifetime of altruism and fighting injustice, and become inspired to better themselves. There’s just a lot of reasons to like him.

BSP: What was your earliest exposure to Batman?

JM: There were two things. When I was maybe four years old, my father brought home a box of Silver Age comics after work one day and let me look through them. The earliest images I saw of Batman were the Justice League of America covers by Mike Sekowsky or Dick Dillin. When I saw those covers and flipped through those comics, it was like someone branded my brain with a hot poker.

The first Batman stories I can remember consuming were those featured in the Adam West show, as I’m sure was the case for a lot of people. One reason it became so popular is that not only was it one of the first live-action color superhero shows, it was the vehicle with which generations of fans discovered the comics. For decades after the show’s cancellation, it was fashionable to dismiss the series as being merely campy or silly. But it was also a gateway drug for multitudes of Batfans, and remains so to this day.

BSP: In your opening chapter on Bill Finger and Bob Kane, the impression I got is you present Finger in a much more positive light. Do you see Finger as Batman’s creator more than Kane?

JM: It depends on how you define creator. Kane got the idea, but it was a very bare bones idea. DC wanted another Superman, and that’s what Kane gave them. What Kane came up with was unworkable, and Finger made it workable. I’m not sure how much you know about the changes Finger made?

BSP: Well, you do talk about how Finger essentially designed Kane’s original costume sketch. That he came up with changing the color scheme to black and gray, adding the cape and cowl…

JM: Right. But under Finger, Batman also became the first superhero with a psyche. Superman was a lot more straight-forward. He fought and captured bad guys because that’s what heroes do. But Finger made Batman more damaged, and thus much more human. He came up with his origin, Gotham City, the gadgets, the car, and most of the villains.

Also, and I think this was unconscious on Finger’s part — he really liked having the villains reflect the hero. For example, the Penguin is a warped reflection of Bruce Wayne in that he adopted the mannerisms of an aristocrat. With the Joker, there’s the yin and yang of reason and madness that exists between him and Batman. Two-Face’s split personality is a commentary on Batman/Bruce’s dual identity. I think Finger was extremely talented, but he probably didn’t think he was. And I don’t think he even realized what he was doing. He didn’t overly intellectualize these things. He just operated on instinct.

BSP: You’ve also included a lot of interviews, some of which go back several years. Why did you decide to structure the book in this way?

JM: Basically, I wanted something for the fan who has everything. When I was working on my Superman book, one of the things I told the publisher was that, if I were a fan reading this book, I wouldn’t want merely prose information. There’s plenty of info online. I’d also want something more than just quotes from the creators. So I asked if I could feature complete interviews in the book. They liked the idea and said, “Sure, go ahead.”

If you buy 100 Things Batman Fans Should Know, you’re going to get at least 150-200 pages of interviews. The remaining 200 pages include photos, artwork, etc. It’s all about what would I want to see as a fan, and what would I’d like to see in a book about Batman.

More from Comics

BSP: Who were your most favorite people in the book you interviewed.

JM: There’s so many. Paul Dini, for one. He’s a wonderful guy, and it was very kind of him to write the foreword for the book. I’d say he’s probably the greatest living Batman writer. He’s also a terrific conversationalist, a natural storyteller. He’s got a great sense humor and is really just a total entertainer.

The late Jerry Robinson, for historical reasons, as the co-creator of the Joker and Robin. He was the elder statesman of American comic books.

Then there’s Denny O’Neil. He, along with Neal Adams had one of the greatest comic book runs in Batman history. He’s the foremost authority when it comes to Batman and is extremely knowledgeable. Also, as the editor on the Batman titles, he oversaw some of the most influential stories in the last thirty years like The Dark Knight Returns, Batman: Year One, The Killing Joke. He and Adams are definitely up there.

And of course, Adam West. He was just so funny and charming. It’s a great shame he became typecast after the TV show. But at the same time, he became this amazing personality. Through sheer force of will, he made himself into a character. For decades, his job was to be Adam West — and he got really good at being Adam West. In so doing, he was able to rise above the typecasting and embrace his many fans. He was a really sweet, warm guy.

BSP: Looking through the list of people you interviewed, Jerry Robinson, Carmine Infantino, Adam West, Heath Ledger…people who are no longer with us…do you feel different when reading over these interviews now compared to when you talked to them while they were alive?

JM: Oh yeah. Heath Ledger for instance. When he was cast as the Joker in The Dark Knight, no one had any idea of the impact he’d have. About six months before The Dark Knight came out, I was interviewing him about his role as Bob Dylan in I’m Not There. When I asked him about playing the Joker, his publicist was like, “Okay, that’s enough questions about that.” But then Ledger was like, “Hang on,” and he talked about what led to him taking the part. He was just such a nice guy. After he died, the buildup to The Dark Knight was just insane. But his performance transcended the hype. When I first saw him on screen as the Joker…I just got chills.

BSP: What would you say are the top three periods of Batman that have defined him today?

JM: Well, if we’re talking film and television, I’d say Batman: The Animated Series. For many, it’s become the definitive Batman. Even Frank Miller has gone on to say that it’s the best composite version of Batman that we’ll likely ever see, as it takes so many different elements from the comics, the movies, and the Adam West show.

The Dark Knight, of course, isn’t just a good superhero movie. It’s just a great movie in general.

Then there’s Batman: Mask of the Phantasm, which was the spin-off feature film from The Animated Series. There might be more acclaimed Batman films, but Mask of the Phantasm has the best script out of all of them.

BSM: What about the original Tim Burton Batman film?

JM: It was an important film, sure. And Burton was integral to Batman’s evolution in the eyes of mainstream audiences. From a historical standpoint, Burton lead the way on screen, just as Frank Miller lead the way in comics with The Dark Knight Returns. They both popularized the darker, more adult version of Batman and made that version the dominating one. That said, when rewatching the movie…it hasn’t aged as well as other superhero films.

BSM: That and it might as well be called “Joker the Movie.”

JM: Yeah, it definitely was more of a Jack Nicholson vehicle than an action-packed Batman movie.

I think [Batman’s] actually more relevant than ever now…The more we venture into brave new worlds, the more useful he becomes. He’s unique in that he’s this comforting grandfather with a rich history behind him and a youthful crusader charging ever forward.

BSM: Is there a particular period of Batman you feel is often overlooked or underappreciated?

JM: Again, since we’re talking film and TV, I’d have to say Batman: The Brave and the Bold. I can understand why some might avoid it. It has a deceptively simple design sensibility that might prompt many to dismiss it as a mediocre children’s cartoon series. But producers James Tucker and Michael Jelenic brought a great deal of intelligence and heart to it. Watching most any episode is like experiencing a second childhood. And it’s not just for kids; there’s a very meta, adult wit to it that’s never cynical. If Pixar (at least the early Pixar) had tackled Batman, they’d have come up with something like The Brave and the Bold. Also, Diedrich Bader (who I interviewed for my book) gives one of the definitive performances as the voice of the Caped Crusader.

As for the comics, the most underrated period would be Steve Englehart and Marshall Rogers’ brief run on Detective Comics. It still holds up even though it came out in the 1970’s and only lasted six issues. But when read together, it functions like a perfect two-hour Batman movie, which is why it helped inspire the 1989 film. It climaxes with the iconic two-part Joker story, “The Laughing Fish” and “Sign of the Joker”, and there’s a great love interest in Silver St. Cloud. There’s dark, Gothic imagery, and Rogers’ use of Batman’s cape and ears influenced many creators who followed him. Plenty of hardcore comic-book fans cite it as a favorite, but it’s not very well known outside those circles.

BSP: Speaking of love interests, you mention in your section on Catwoman that she’s “the most important woman in Batman’s life.” With the news they’re engaged to be married in the comics, do you feel vindicated by this statement?

JM: Well, I did mention Batman proposed to her in the book, but now that she’s accepted, I think it’s awesome. [Laughs.] It allows creators to tell different kinds of stories, much like when Lois and Clark were married in the Superman comics. Tom King and David Finch’s Batman is one of the best comics out there right now.

BSP: Given the ebbs and flows Batman has had over the years, where do see him heading now? Do you think there will be a point where he becomes overexposed and burned out?

JM: I think he’s actually more relevant than ever now. Technology appears to advance exponentially these days, and he’s always adapting to the times, both in how technology is incorporated into his stories and how his adventures take advantage of new media. The more we venture into brave new worlds, the more useful he becomes. He’s unique in that he’s this comforting grandfather with a rich history behind him and a youthful crusader charging ever forward.

Also, while I know quite a few don’t care for Batman v Superman, and I too have issues with the film, Ben Affleck turned in a solid performance. He looks like he walked right out of the comic books, and there’s no reason to think he couldn’t carry a solo Batman movie.

The character is just so malleable. The fact that he lends himself to the gritty Arkham games or an R-rated film like The Killing Joke and yet continues to feature in cartoons and toys for four-year-olds… It’s amazing.

Credit: Triumph Books; list of tour dates for 100 Things Batman

BSP: Would you say there’s a particular order to reading your book, or did you write it with the idea that it’s nonlinear?

JM: Though the book’s one hundred entries are ranked in order of importance, one can easily jump around while reading it. In fact, it’s expected that most readers won’t read it from start to finish. Writing the various chapters, I tried to make it so that it’s like finding a particular piece of candy in a bowl, with each chapter offering a different kind of treat.

BSP: What would you like readers to take away from your book?

JM: I think it’d be nice for them just to learn about Bill Finger’s role in creating Batman. For seventy-five years he was denied the recognition he richly deserved. It’s a privilege to have the opportunity to help further that recognition. By the way, if you haven’t yet watched Marc Tyler Nobleman’s documentary Batman & Bill on Hulu, please do so. It’s essential to appreciating Bill’s legacy.

BSP: Finally, you have a section about “Visiting the Batcave” from the TV show. How often is it visited?

JM: Pretty frequently. When I first visited, I was surprised I hadn’t heard more people speak about it. I thought, “Why isn’t this a national landmark?” But the locals know of its existence. If you’re in the Los Angeles area, just go to Griffith Park. It’s right there. Granted, it’s more of a tunnel than a cave, but the mouth is big enough to walk right on through. It makes for a great photo.

BSP: Thanks again, for your time, Bill.

JM: You mean Joe, right? [Laughs.]

BSP: Oh, sorry. I guess I have Bill Finger on the brain.

JM: Good! [Laughs.]

100 Things Batman Fans Should Know & Do Before They Die is available in bookstores October 15, 2017, and can be ordered through Amazon and direct from TriumphBooks.com.

Next: Interview with Mark Ginocchio on “100 Things Spider-Man Fans Should Know…”

Credit: Joseph McCabe

Joseph McCabe is a reporter Total Film and Digital Spy. He is also the West Coast editor of SFX magazine. His book Hanging Out with the Dream King was nominated for the Bram Stoker and International Horror Guild Awards.

Source: Triumph Books.

Home/Comics